Note: Dan Gable, who has won championships as both a wrestler and coach on the college and international level, took time during the Junior and Cadet National Championships in Fargo, N.D., to visit with WIN editor Mike Finn about the current leadership in wrestling.

            WIN: On a scale of 1 to 5 with 5 being the highest rating, how would you rate the state of amateur wrestling in the United States?

            GABLE: Right now, we are a 3 and have the potential to move up a notch over time. But if we sit on our hands and don’t get together, we’re going to go down to a 2. Amateur wrestling has never been a 5 because wrestling is not football and basketball. The highest in my time has been a 3.5, maybe a 4. I’ve never wanted (wrestling) to be a 3. I want (wrestling) to be there with football and basketball.

            The state of wrestling needs a lot of cooperation and a lot of people getting involved and not getting competitive against the sport of wrestling. If we are consistently doing the right things, in a ten-year period we are going to be where we need to be.

            I see three national organizations — USA Wrestling, the National Wrestling Coaches Association (NWCA), and the Hall of Fame Museums (in Stillwater, Okla., and Waterloo, Iowa) — as the leaders of our sport. I see a vision of a structure that shows a flow where everyone can have their hands in it without people going out and trying to knock over the apple cart. But sometimes it is OK to knock over the apple cart. If someone is not doing their job, then someone should challenge them.

            WIN: With that in mind, should any form of wrestling leadership be challenged?

            GABLE: I think it all does. What needs to be challenged is how we all work together. It’s not one dictator stating that you can go ahead and do this. I’m not talking about that frame of mind. I’m looking at it as if someone wants to challenge someone, both parties need to work it out.

            WIN: Is that the problem; that there is not one voice, one leader?

            GABLE: What needs to be done is that there needs to be one voice at the top. I don’t mean one person, but one group or a board that is all-inclusive. What comes out of their agenda is that everyone believes in what they are doing and it’s correct.

            WIN: Who needs to head up such a leadership board?

            GABLE: Those organizations have already had a cooperative fundraiser and because of that, a lot of the bugs have been worked out. These three organizations need to know where to go and a board needs to be more solid this time. There are some common denominators out there.

            WIN: Does selfishness within these organizations hurt the overall goal?

            GABLE: I don’t think it’s selfishness. It’s a lack of organization. There could be selfishness because there is a lack of understanding out there. Some will say, “I know someone is doing this. How am I going to keep up if this person is doing something questionable? I don’t want my hands tied.” No one trusts anybody, but the trust needs to go back to one governing group above those three groups.

            You want a group that everyone respects but also knows the group is not going to be perfect. Right now we have too many missions and these missions are spread all over. Each group should have a mission and stay within that one-line mission.

            WIN: With that in mind, what should be the No. 1 mission in wrestling?

            GABLE: Making sure that kids continue to wrestle. Kids aren’t going to start wrestling at age 15. Wrestling has to have kids and have a showcase, which I believe is NCAA wrestling, especially Division I, and of course the Olympics.

            WIN: What does wrestling need to do to make wrestling matter to even the non-wrestling fan?

            GABLE: How did soccer get me to watch the World Cup final even though the USA was not playing? From what I understand the soccer coaches association is one of the most organized coaching associations in the world. When it came to promoting the sport in the United States, they were organized. We have a lot of wrestling fans around. We just need to get their noses back into the sport and capture others.

            WIN: You mentioned three leaders in wrestling: USA Wrestling, NWCA and the national wrestling museums. What about high school wrestling?

            GABLE: That’s the NWCA, which promotes education. High school wrestling is the big bloc and we can’t lose education when it comes to wrestling. If we lose high school wrestling, then you go to clubs, which is where gymnastics is. The educational system is the place to be. All kids’ wrestling can fit inside the NWCA. The “Beat the Streets” program (in New York) can be within the NWCA.

            I’m not a realist like most people. But I don’t think anyone with huge vision and wants to do something that is important in life is a realist. Otherwise, we’re not running the mile in under four minutes, which was supposed to be humanly impossible.

            WIN: Speaking of something being humanly possible, is it possible to get all these groups under the same message?

            GABLE: It’s absolutely possible. It hasn’t happened yet because we have no structural direction.

            WIN: How do we bring everyone together in wrestling?

            GABLE: We are doing that. We have a great start. All we have to do is go to all the head people of the three organizations. Those three people have had the experience to know not to repeat ourselves. We are starting at a higher place than we have before.

            WIN: Would those three groups admit that wrestling is rated at a 3 now?

            GABLE: I don’t know. Everyone has their own strong opinion.

            WIN: But shouldn’t they all have the same opinion?

            GABLE: That’s why there needs to be a group above all over time. We can’t have leaders LeRoy Smith (National Wrestling Museum), Rich Bender (USA Wrestling) and Mike Moyer (NWCA) off on their own. They have been working together and know they may not be the three guys to do this. They may know who they want to speak on behalf of the organization.

            WIN: Does amateur wrestling need a professional public relations organization to get out the right message?

            GABLE: Yes, to get on a singular message for the sport. One sentence cannot define an organization, but one sentence can give you the No. 1 mission. USA Wrestling should mean gold medals. The NWCA should mean education. The National Wrestling Museum should mean two words: history and inspiration.

            Wrestling is so complicated, but if we can break it down and make it simple, I think we have a shot. We also need the media on board as well as getting more fans in the seats watching.

            WIN: Are these three groups aware of this need?

            GABLE: I think they know it but they have to sit down and be a part of solving the issues that bombard them. One of the organizations already told me that if there was ever a time to do what we’re talking about, it’s possible now.

            There are going to be some roadblocks, but everyone needs to know what the big picture is … and that when you really need to do something for the sport, you do it. There should not be any question.

            WIN: The one common denominator about football and basketball is that these sports seem to feed into each other; from high school to college to professional. Wrestling does not have that. In fact, there seems to be gaps between each level of wrestling where we lose people. There is MMA (Mixed Martial Arts), a legitimate form of professional wrestling. But some people believe that MMA is forcing wrestlers to leave the sport of wrestling.

            GABLE: MMA could split wrestling until we get organized. I believe MMA wrestling should be strongly associated with USA Wrestling.

            WIN: Can you see (UFC president) Dana White doing that?

            GABLE: I see him doing it if he sees a good flow structure. He has all these great wrestlers coming out of college making him a lot of money. It’s not going to happen now because MMA is going its own way. Our wrestlers should be winning World and Olympic titles and still kicking butt in the MMA. Are the potential greats doing what they could potentially be doing? I see them doing several things, but are they really dominating?

            WIN: I’m having a hard time seeing MMA wanting to fit within the USA Wrestling structure. How will it happen?

            GABLE: The Olympics is still the biggest sporting event in the world. That’s the bottom line. MMA is not bigger than the Olympics. People who think that are wrong. I don’t believe the Super Bowl is bigger than the Olympics. The Super Bowl lasts four hours. The Olympics last four weeks.

            WIN: What is more important to an amateur wrestler: winning an Olympic gold medal or becoming an MMA champ?

            GABLE: He should want to be an Olympic gold medalist and if he has the vision, he’ll want to win in the MMA.

            WIN:  Is this simply a financial question, where a wrestler must decide where he can make the most money?

            GABLE: I think the financial question can be much more solvable as compared to now. But what I’m talking about cannot happen overnight. This will take ten years and we’ve already started this process. One of the first things that happened was getting the museums (the National Hall of Fame in Stillwater, Okla., and the Dan Gable International Wrestling Institute and Museum in Waterloo, Iowa) together. Remember the Hall of Fame is officially sanctioned by FILA and I think the Hall of Fame making the IWIM part of the Olympic effort makes this a more solid effort. We made progress simply by doing that.

            WIN: If you brought all these different governing groups together, could they accomplish something?

            GABLE: If the presenters are organized well enough to make everyone’s ears ring from a positive point of view. We are nowhere near that yet.

            WIN: Do all these groups need to look beyond their own personal needs?

            GABLE: They need to do what they need to do to help themselves. But when the question is about the bigger picture, there is no question. They should look at the bigger picture without crushing their own organization. Remember, one organization has told me they believe it’s the right time to come together.

            WIN: So are you saying all these groups are admitting it’s time to come together?

            GABLE: Not yet. It’s just a start. We just believe we have a shot of making that happen. It’s still difficult; just like it would be to win an Olympic gold medal or win every match that you enter. But the impossible does happen. Remember that Cael Sanderson won every match he entered in college.

            Don’t get me wrong. We are good now but not good enough. But through great leadership, we as a sport can run more efficiently and we can achieve greatness consistently in the future.

            (Additional Dan Gable Q&As can be found at WIN-Magazine.com.)